Who is a Jew?: Worst-case scenario
From the Brooklyn Wolf's "Scary Paper on Annulling Conversions:"
ProfK said...
Anonymous's comment "Where does this end?" brought to mind a really scary end to this scenario. If geirus [conversion] can be invalidated retroactively then what is to keep rabbanim [rabbis] somewhere down the line from saying that being a Jew will no longer be passed down from mother to child? That you only get to call yourself a Jew if you meet X,Y and Z criteria?
June 17, 2008 8:29 AM
ProfK said...
Anonymous's comment "Where does this end?" brought to mind a really scary end to this scenario. If geirus [conversion] can be invalidated retroactively then what is to keep rabbanim [rabbis] somewhere down the line from saying that being a Jew will no longer be passed down from mother to child? That you only get to call yourself a Jew if you meet X,Y and Z criteria?
June 17, 2008 8:29 AM
posted by Shira Salamone at 3:37 PM
13 Comments:
Interesting idea. Although I think it would be difficult to get any widespread support for such an idea. That being said, I'm sure someone will get around to giving this a shot at some point.
The Reform tried... defined a Jew as a person born to a Jewish Mother OR Father that was brought up a Jew. The "brought up a Jew" part gets neglected in their liberalism (patriarchal lineage), but they tried to define it.
Th Haredi have already sort of done so... while they acknowledge the Jewishness of their BTs, they discourage their people from marrying them... officially to avoid non-religious in-laws, but there is plenty of "they aren't really Jewish" involved.
You don't need THAT much support... just enough to freak people out that their children won't be able to get married... that gives people two choices, comply or get out, and to those lacking the ability to earn a living in the secular world, get out isn't really an option.
Just what I need: Yet another reason to continue blogging under a pseudonym. With my heretical views, I'd be tossed out of the Jewish People in a New York minute. :(
Avi, *interesting* idea?! I'm not surely "interesting" is exactly the term I would use, although the term that I *would* isn't printable on a family blog.
And yes, as Alex commented, this has already been tried--at both ends of the "observance spectrum."
Delightful. Not! Just what the Jewish People needs--more divisiveness, fewer Jews. As if we haven't lost enough Jews in the last 70 years or so. :(
Alex- you bring up some excellent points and certainly show that this is stuff which is already taken place on both ends of the spectrum. Thanks for pointing it out because I hadn't really looked at it that way and you are right.
Shira - I chose the word interesting because I thought it was. I didn't mean it in the hay am interested in finding out with the new Star Trek movie is going to be like. Interesting, as in it's not something I previously really considered and the idea got me thinking and thinking in my world is interesting.
To be honest I'm not sure that all of this distress and confusion isn't actually a good thing in the long haul. Maybe not so much for the Orthodox world but within the larger liberal Jewish world I think all of this is going to help break the projected psychological monopoly that orthodoxy has managed to maintain in terms of defining and deciding who a legit Jew is and what legitimate Judaism is.
Of course that's just my intuition speaking.
". . . I think all of this is going to help break the projected psychological monopoly that orthodoxy has managed to maintain in terms of defining and deciding who a legit Jew is and what legitimate Judaism is." So your theory is that (some of) the Chareidi rabbis are shooting themselves in the foot--and they don't care? One might be able to make a case that some of the more extreme Chareidim simply consider themselves "sh'erit Yisrael," the remnant of Israel/the Jewish People (I hope that my Hebrew is correct), and have already written off the other 90% of the Jewish community as either irrelevent or not Jewish. This is certainly not calculated to make the rest of us--including the more reasonable Chareidim--very happy.
I guess one thing about the Jewish People that hasn't changed since biblical times is our divisiveness. "Two Jews, three opinions," the old saying goes. Sometimes that works in our favor, and sometimes it doesn't. :(
I was thinking more about my peer’s (especially other JBC’s) in the “Liberal Jewish” world, who in the darkest corners of their minds, somehow convince themselves that “Orthodoxy” is more authentic, knows better and most importantly, speaks with one voice on issues like who is a Jew. It’s a mind trip I see people run on themselves all the time and is something I have fallen in to myself upon occasion.
So for some of us this may indeed be a good thing because all of this helps us to see that the grass really isn’t greener (read as more authentic and together,) on the other side. I could be wrong but I know that’s how I’m increasingly seeing things.
Because the Orthodox world keeps Mitzvot... period. The Haredi world comes across as more authentic than the Modern Orthodox world, not because of the silly uniforms, but because none of them will publicly break Halacha and suggest that it is acceptable. Plenty of MO Jews not only "eat out," but are completely open that they "eat out."
The Liberal Jewish world lacks authenticity, not for being intellectually empty (the conservative movement's halachic nonsense is well known because of the few clear cut wrong examples), Reform is full of intellectualism, but because the participants don't do Jewish.
If you have to adjust your synagogue schedule around soccer practice, so kids can show up on Shabbat before practice and/or games (see Rabbi Yoffie's speech this year), then you aren't valuing Judaism. It's not because you don't keep Shabbat, it's because a soccer game is more important... If the game and services were at the same time, you'd pick the game, then soccer is more important than Judaism.
The Orthodox world's people clearly value Judaism. When we don't do Saturday hours (which is tough in many fields), spend more on food, eat in a restricted number of restaurants, etc., because of our dedication to Judaism, you can't help but see the authenticity. Whether you agree with the Orthodox interpretations or not, there is no question that, on the ground, members of Orthodox Shuls value their Judaism more than members of non-Orthodox Temples, because when something competes with Judaism, Judaism wins amongst the Orthodox, loses amongst the liberal streams.
Until you find a way for people to VALUE Judaism, they will always look at Orthodox as authenticate, and just dismiss it as too difficult. You need to value the liberal stream in its own right, and that is hard to do when nobody will sacrifice anything for Judaism. (Reform REALLY screwed the pooch when they canceled their summer programs in Israel during the second intifada...)
Orthodoxy speaks with one voice? If there's one thing I've learned within the past few years, through a combination of reading books and newspapers, reading blogs, and working for a "black-hat" Orthodox organization, it's that the range of opinions within the Orthodox community is stunningly broad. Whether it's on the issue of "who is a Jew?" or how much of her hair, if any, a married woman must cover, no two Orthodox Jews seem to agree on everything. Sometimes that diversity of opinion works to the benefit of the Jewish community as a whole, and, unfortunately, sometimes it works to the harm thereof. :(
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Thats my point Shira, its not!!! But the people I'm referring to often mistakenly believe that it is.
Again, this is why I think this kind 'headline' news if you will, is imo a good thing. It sheds light for those who otherwise wouldn't no any better.
I am an non-orthodo convert who spends a lot of time in the orthodox world, so I know that it can be just as messed up as anywhere else. However until, I started associating with the orthodox here in LA, I had no idea about its devisions and problems.
I agree that divisions and diviseness within the Orthodox community can be a bit of an eye-opener to those of us not previously exposed to it.
Er, "divisiveness."
Alex, I'm sorry that I somehow missed your last comment. I think that you've pretty much nailed the issue right on the head:
"Whether you agree with the Orthodox interpretations or not, there is no question that, on the ground, members of Orthodox Shuls value their Judaism more than members of non-Orthodox Temples, because when something competes with Judaism, Judaism wins amongst the Orthodox, loses amongst the liberal streams.
Until you find a way for people to VALUE Judaism, they will always look at Orthodox as authenticate, and just dismiss it as too difficult. You need to value the liberal stream in its own right, and that is hard to do when nobody will sacrifice anything for Judaism.
Yup. That's pretty much what we discussed previously here.
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